Jason Hartman talks with Alex about the most landlord friendly areas to invest, specific properties an excellent cash flow market with the following highlights:

– #1 Place to Live in the United States (Cities under 1,000,000 in population), Kiplinger Magazine July 2013
– Top Ten Smaller Markets in the South for Foreign Investment, Southern Business Development
– No Real Estate Boom or Bust, thus earned recognition of 10 strongest Real Estate Market in 2009,
– 2nd Most Diverse Economy, Moody’s Investors Service
– 2nd Cleanest City in the U.S., Forbes Magazine, 2011
– 22nd out of 361 metropolitan areas as best places for business, Forbes magazine, 2005
– 7th best metropolitan economy in the United States, Brookings Institution, 2009

Little Rock Industry and Business – Major employers:

  • State Government
  • 2 Major Universities
  • Twenty-eight (28) Fortune 500 companies
  • Little Rock Air Force Base
  • Healthcare (Very large job base from hospitals, insurance and manufacturing )
  • Dassault Falcon Jet Corp
  • Verizon
  • Caterpillar
  • IT company Acxiom
  • Windstream
  • Stephens Inc (Largest Investment Bank not located in NY)
  • L’Oreal
  • LM Wind Power (North America)
  • Dillard’s

Key Takeaways:

(2:13) Why haven’t people paid more attention to the Little Rock market?
(7:50) Little Rock & lifestyle rankings
(11:37) Major employers in Little Rock
(13:13) Looking at some Little Rock properties
(18:22) On the military presence in Little Rock
(19:22) Looking at another Little Rock property
(23:34) Closing comments


Audio Transcription:

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Creating Wealth with Jason Hartman! During this program Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven’t thought of before, and a new slant on investing: fresh new approaches to America’s best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self-made multi-millionaire who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. He’s been a successful investor for 20 years and currently owns properties in 11 states and 17 cities. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to financial freedom. You really can do it! And now, here’s your host, Jason Hartman, with the complete solution for real estate investors.

JASON HARTMAN: Welcome to the Creating Wealth Show. This is your host, Jason Hartman, and this is episode #395. Thank you so much for joining me today, and thank you for your feedback on prior episodes, too! One of the things I wanted to discuss, because I didn’t have much time, is discuss the audio I played on the last episode, regarding Little Rock, and I kind of dive into that a little more depth. I kind of did that just really quickly on the last episode, because I didn’t want to forget to include it. But to do that, I’ve got one of our Little Rock team members here with us, and that is Alex; how you doing?

ALEX: Doing very good, Jason.

JASON HARTMAN: Good, good to have you. First of all, this is a smaller city. It’s definitely not a city that makes the headlines, by any means. But it’s really got some fantastic metrics. There are some fantastic things to consider when you look at the fact sheet. And I’m looking at some of your PowerPoint slides here that you presented at our last Creating Wealth event back in June. 14% growth in population since 2000. Cost of living is 10.9% lower than the US average. The median home cost, $114,000. The national average is $153,800, and 32% of the city rents. This is like, a landlord’s dream. You know, the property taxes are incredibly low, unemployment rate is incredibly low, consistently below the national average. Let’s dive in and talk about some of this. Why haven’t people really paid attention to this market? You know, what are your thoughts?

Why haven’t people paid more attention to the Little Rock market?

ALEX: We ask that same question ourselves, and it’s really kind of perplexing. Maybe because Little Rock just is not on the national radar like some of the other markets like Atlanta and Memphis and Dallas. It’s really flown under the radar, which obviously, we like a lot. You refer to it being a small city, and it’s really not that small. And I guess you would think it’s small; you don’t hear of Little Rock getting on the national news that much, but the metro area’s 850,000 people. So, it is a fairly large metro area. But what we’ve liked about it the most, is the fact that it has stayed off the radar, which has kept prices low. It’s been off the hedge fund radar, so we’re calling Little Rock the best kept secret, and we want to keep it that way. We don’t want hedge funds coming in. We haven’t approached hedge funds to introduce what we’re doing there. But the lack of institutional investors, it’s been a really good kept secret.

JASON HARTMAN: You know, the first market that we saw them all come into—the first market that actually made any sense, I’ll put it that way. I’m not even considering California stuff in this equation when I say that. Is Phoenix, where I live. This market was coming back. The institutions just came in here with wild abandon, and they just kind of ruined it, in a way. Because they just—they made it impossible to compete, for anybody who wants to do anything that makes sense. And they really haven’t been in Little Rock much, so it’s stayed below the radar, as you like to say. What would you say, Alex, when we talk about that video, that probably goes too far—the idea of using law enforcement to enforce a private contract is very unusual. But, you know what I didn’t like about it? They just seemed to point out all these poor areas. And every city has poor areas. Look, I grew up in overpriced Los Angeles. And there’s a lot of very poor and very bad areas in Los Angeles. Heck, that’s where the LA riots started. Some of these areas, they’re so dangerous it’s not even funny. What do you think about that video? It seems that it pointed out—made it seem like this was some poverty-stricken city.

ALEX: The media has a fantastic history of portraying things a little bit probably over the top, and not putting things in the best light, and really going towards one side of the population. But, we like the video, and the fact that it laid out that Arkansas’s a very landlord-friendly state. When we saw the video, we were very selective, though, how we wanted to market. Because it did portray the state of Arkansas as just being very country, back woods, lagging behind the rest of the country with up to date landlord laws, and it really portrayed some of the most deplorable places in Arkansas. And really none of that video took place in Little Rock. We didn’t like the way it made landlords out to be. It made landlords—it really was kind of a slumlord type video. But the bottom line that we, you know, made public to our investors was, just the fact that it is a very landlord-friendly state, and if you needed to get your tenant out quickly, you can. In all reality, if you wanted to get your tenant out in two weeks, that wouldn’t be a problem.

JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, very interesting. Two weeks, and that is a good thing; when you’ve got a deadbeat tenant, you’ve gotta get him out of there. You’ve gotta have landlord-friendly laws so you can move on and do that. Here, they were talking about slums, and certainly in Los Angeles, my hometown, you’ve got lots and lots of slums. Especially, oddly, the government housing seems to be some of the worst. Let’s go through this presentation a little bit and just look at some of the Little Rock metrics that make it interesting. I mean, 40% of the nation’s population in buying power, within 550 miles?

ALEX: Yeah, I mean, it’s centrally located. So, logistics jobs it makes sense for. It’s a very centrally located city.

JASON HARTMAN: And tell us about your experience with Memphis vs. Little Rock, if you would. You were born in Little Rock, is that correct?

ALEX: Yeah, I was born in Little Rock. We moved over to Memphis very quickly. So I didn’t live in Little Rock very long, but it’s always been a second home to me, because we’ve got family over there, which is how we got started in the Little Rock market in the first place. But I’ve always really compared both of the markets as being very similar. The drivers of both markets are considerably different, where Memphis is a very logistic distribution town. Little Rock is more of a diverse economy, and that’s why Moody’s Investor Services rated it as the second most diverse economy; because there is a lot of different things that are going on in Little Rock that drive the economy. So when the Recession happened six, seven years ago—when a lot of markets suffered, even Memphis, it was kind of the story of how the investment boom happened; there were a lot of individuals who lost their jobs. The distribution office—if you have a bad economy, distribution’s gonna be one of those sectors that’s gonna hurt. But Little Rock, there’s a lot of different sectors that even in a bad economy, there’s not one single sector that could drag it down. So that’s why there wasn’t a huge housing crisis in Little Rock, like a lot of other cities, because the economy stayed strong. But comparing to those cities, the cash flow’s really good in both market. So, I’ve always seen them very similar; Little Rock is a tad bit smaller, but both markets, if you’re a cash flow investor, Little Rock’s definitely a market you would want to look at.

JASON HARTMAN: It’s interesting, because they look at the job growth predictions. The 10-year prediction based on economic factors, migration patterns, etc., is 33.7%, vs. the national average prediction of 32.1%. That’s a pretty decent margin, over the nation. America’s really discovering that they don’t need to be in these overpriced, overcrowded, over-regulated cities. I’ll use the LA comparison again. I mean, it’s just amazing how this has changed, vs. when I got into the business so many years ago. It used to be, oh, you gotta be in the centers. In the big cities. And it’s just not that way. What about some of these rankings? You know, #1 place to live in the United States. Kiplinger Magazine, in July of 2013. Really? I think that would amaze some people listening.

Little Rock & lifestyle rankings

ALEX: Little Rock’s a very clean town. Actually, I think it was named the second cleanest city in the United States. There’s just a lot to do in Little Rock. It’s just a great place to live. Like I said, it’s always been a second home to me. And no matter what your hobby is, there’s something to do there, whether you’re into outdoors, you’re into sports, you’re into music, you’re into dining out and having a good time being entertained. There’s just a lot to do in Little Rock. And part of that Kiplinger study—it just brings it all together. Is there things to do? Is the housing cheap? Is the crime low? All those things, is how they develop that rating. And Little Rock’s a great place to live. I mean, the development they’re doing downtown’s amazing, and when y’all come to Little Rock for the bus tour, you’ll just be overwhelmed with what they’ve done. I know y’all haven’t seen what it looked like beforehand. They continue to put in—and I don’t know what the number is; it’s somewhere in the billions—of what they’re putting in capital infrastructure to the town.

JASON HARTMAN: Look at these highly reputable sources. Kiplinger’s, Business Week—okay, so, Business Week says, 4th strongest economy in the country? I mean, who would think that? That’s amazing.

ALEX: It’s just another one of those markets that stays off the radar, but because the economy’s strong, it didn’t used to be a good housing market for investors; it’s very friendly. When unemployment stays low, and the economy is strong, then there’s just gonna be good things going on in the town.

JASON HARTMAN: Southern Business Development says, top 10 smaller markets in the south for foreign investment. Forbes says, no real estate boom or bust, thus earned recognition, 10 strongest real estate markets in 2009. Moody’s—

ALEX: Well Jason, that no boom or bust—I don’t want to interrupt you right there—that’s another reason why that makes this a good market. If you look at—

JASON HARTMAN: Linear markets, we like linear markets, yeah.

ALEX: Well, why Memphis became a great cash flow town, was obviously the result of subprime lending and foreclosures; a lot of housing hitting the market. And it’s not just Memphis; it was Atlanta, and Dallas, and several other cities that because there was a huge housing decline, there was a big renter pool out there. You lost your home, those people turned into tenants. Well, in Little Rock, they didn’t have those huge boom or bust, so what they—now, ongoing, growing demand of people wanting to rent in general, it is creating a demand for rental houses in Little Rock. And because there wasn’t a huge wave of foreclosures like other markets that creates, just like I said in general with individuals wanting to be more renters, a demand for rental properties. So, we’ve answered the demand with what we’re doing, and Little Rock is putting nice rental homes on the market, and there’s an obvious demand, how quick we’re renting these things out, there’s an obvious demand for rental homes in Little Rock.

JASON HARTMAN: Okay. Forbes says, 22nd out of 361 metropolitan areas, as best places for business. This is Forbes Magazine. That’s an amazing ranking. You know? 22nd out of 361. Brookings Institution, and I’ve had some Brookings Institute guests on my show. 7th best metropolitan economy in the United States, in 2009. Nobody listening probably thinks that Little Rock, a place that so many people hadn’t even probably heard of before Bill Clinton, would get these kind of rankings, and garner this kind of interest. It’s amazing.

ALEX: Low taxes in the state, I mean, it’s the complete polar opposite of a state like California or New York, where taxes just kill business. Arkansas is a very tax-friendly state. Very pilot-friendly state, which is controversial, all over the country. Giving businesses property tax breaks in lieu of taxes to come, and Arkansas’s very friendly with that. So yeah, it’s a very friendly business state, which obviously that’s going to contribute to a strong economy.

Major employers in Little Rock

JASON HARTMAN: Speaking of business friendliness. Let’s look at the major employers: state government, two major universities, 28—get this, 28 Fortune 500 companies. The air force base. Healthcare, a large job base for hospitals, insurance manufacturing, Dassault Falcon Jet Corporation—I want one of those. Verizon, Caterpillar, IT company Axiom, Windstream, Stephens Inc, the largest investment bank not located in New York, Loreal, LM Wind Power, Dillard’s, and many others.

ALEX: One thing to take from that—if you noticed, all of those—those are all big companies. Those are all huge employers. And they’re across a bunch of different sectors. And if you’re looking at a market that you don’t want to be into a market with one market driver, then Little Rock offers that. Because you just named several different sectors, just within that brief list of companies you named.

JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, a diversified employment base is always good. And a linear market versus a cyclical market is always good. And we’ve shown on prior episodes how over time, even though the cyclical markets have the big ups and downs, and they make a lot of headlines, because when they’re booming, they’re booming, and people are making money. But over time, since no one I know has really been that good at ever predicting appreciation or depreciation reliably, over time, the linear markets, amazingly, beat those high-flying cyclical markets. So, that’s what you’ve got here. So let’s look at some properties. One of the things that I really love that you guys do—you do great kitchens. Very designer-looking, and very cool. So, this property is $76,900, and tell us a little bit about it.

Looking at some Little Rock properties

ALEX: It’s located right in what we call mid town Little Rock, in the Broadmoor District. What we really like about this property is the location of it. It’s near 630, which is the main, I guess, interstate loop within the city. So it gets you anywhere that you need to be in Little Rock in 15 to 20 minutes. The [unintelligible] University Ave, near UALR, University of Arkansas at Little Rock, and near a major hospital. Now, when we tell our investors it’s near a major university, the first thing they ask us is, is it near—are we gonna get college students? Is it gonna be Animal House at our property? And the answer is no. It’s a commuter college, so, most of the people going there are older, they’re going back to school, they live local. So, it’s just more we mention it because it’s a driver of the local economy. So we like the area. There’s a lot to do right in the vicinity. And we like the neighborhood a lot too. What you have is a lot of older individuals who have lived their all their lives; maybe even the original owners of the houses. They’re passing away in the family; anytime you get someone that’s lived in a house, you get several different sibling involved, that’s where you can pick up a really good deal, because they just want to get rid of it. So we’ve gone in there, and got some of these houses, and done our updates, and brought it up to today’s law, and it’s been a really easy rent for us in the area.

JASON HARTMAN: Looking at the pro forma specifically on this one, debt coverage ratio—which is interesting, because we recently talked about that on our members only conference call. And this property—and we were talking about investor financing options on that call last week. This property has a debt coverage ratio of 1.76%. phenomenal. I mean, that is totally phenomenal. So, and we’ve talked about that on prior episodes of the podcast. But I just want to point that one out first, because I rarely do. Now, the projected rent here is $895. And Alex, it’s already rented?

ALEX: Yes. Tenants are already in place. We put it on the market, and that’s—we got a couple of applications on it. Third app came in, we approved it all within 21 days.

JASON HARTMAN: Fantastic. So, this is not exactly a pro forma; this property is already—pro forma means prediction, projection. This is actually already doing this, okay? So, here you’ve got $895 per month. That brings your positive cash flow down based on 20% down on this pro forma, to $251 per month—over $3000 per year—on just an $18,300 investment! So, $3000 per year, $18,300 invested, means you’re overall cash on cash return, as long as you maintain the same income and expense ratio, and you’ve already got the income, it’s already rented, of 16% annually. 16%. I mean, where else can you do that? 16% annually. That’s phenomenal. The cap rate is 9.1%. Good luck trying to find that on a lot of commercial deals out there. And what’s interesting here is that on your pro forma, and this is probably a mistake, I’m pretty sure it is, you put the real estate appreciation rate at 0. So, the overall return on investment here is only 21%. If you pro forma-ed—I know that’s a mistake—if you pro forma-ed the national average appreciation there, and say you put in 6%, I’m sure your return on investment here would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% annually. Overall, with everything included.

ALEX: That was a mistake, yeah. So yeah, you’re right. You’re looking at right around 40%. And I want to touch on one thing, because you mentioned the kitchens, and we get this question a lot when individuals ask us. Like, why are you putting granite in? Do you really need to put granite in?

JASON HARTMAN: The back splashes are totally designer too.

ALEX: It doesn’t cost that much. If you look at a lot of the kitchens we do, there’s not a huge counter space. So we’re talking maybe an additional $700, $800 to put in granite. Maybe a couple hundred dollars extra for the backsplash. We’re talking maybe 1000 extra dollars. The reason we’re doing it in Little Rock is because we can. There’s other markets where prices have gone up so much that there’s not much room for acquisition, and then fixing the property up and still having that room in there to turn around and sell it to another investor, and then them still cash flowing. So there’s room to do these things. And if you can get those types of returns with that type of kitchen, in the long run you’re reducing the investor-owner’s maintenance anyways.

JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, right.

ALEX: And obviously it makes it easier to rent. One of the things we’re going in Little Rock—we’re creating a brand of homes, and that all takes some time. But we’re answering a demand they have in Little Rock, where, what we found out before we got into the market, that most of the rental homes that look like a grandmother’s house, they look like the grandmother passed away, the family didn’t know what to do, so let’s rent it out, and the thing hadn’t been updated. And that’s what a lot of the rental homes look like. So there was a demand to have some really nice rentals, and that’s what we’re doing, and the houses are renting quick.

JASON HARTMAN: These are really swanky. I love what you guys do to the kitchens; they’re awesome. And you know, as they always say, kitchens and bathrooms, that’s what sells. So that’s important. Now, this has got your vacancy rate included in the pro forma even though it’s already pre-rented. It’s got a maintenance percentage built into the pro forma. And overall, that’s just pretty awesome. Anything else you’d like to say about this one?

ALEX: I agree, it’s awesome cash flow. I’d say the maintenance on a property like this, it’s about 1100 square feet, so, your maintenance and turn costs is gonna be a little bit less, as opposed to a larger house, 1800 square feet. So your maintenance should be pretty low on this one, just because it’s a little smaller house.

On the military presence in Little Rock

JASON HARTMAN: Talk to us about the military presence in Little Rock, and the tenant base there, and the expenditures, and so forth. I mean, a 6000-acre military base, $830 million a year impact in the economy. That’s almost a billion dollars. Again, I say a fairly small economy.

ALEX: There’s an air force base, Camp Robinson, in Little Rock. And once again, it’s another driver of the economy. Out of the homes we manage, we do have some individuals that work on the base. We’ve got some houses for sale in that military base area. Coincidentally, we don’t have a military tenant in those. But if you’ve got a house near a military base, it’s just one other added feature of, well, we could get a military tenant, or we could get a normal tenant. So it just increases the renter pool.

JASON HARTMAN: More than 5000 active duty military and civilian members, with 5500 family members living and working on and around the base. So, let’s look at one more property, before we wrap up, and just talk about a couple more Little Rock highlights before we go.

Looking at another Little Rock property

ALEX: Okay, we’ve got another one within that same neighborhood. So, once again, we really like the area, that central location. And this one is $102,900. Tenant is already in place for $1100 a month. And normally we don’t like to talk about the tenant profiles, but I just kind of found this one interesting. So, he makes $95,000 a year and works at Dillard’s. So, I didn’t know that a local department store manager could make that much money. So we’ve got a tenant with really good income in the property. Like I said, already rented; the property has new countertops, new light fixtures; you walk in our houses, and even though the house was built in 1955, everything in it is new, from everything you could see. Lights, electrical, countertops, flooring, all of that is new. Actually, on this one we’ve done a lot of work under the house. So, every once in a while we get an investor we don’t like, and they look at us, and they’re like, well, 1955, that’s kind of old, but when you do your property inspection, you come to find out that some of these homes are probably in better shape than a house built in 2000.

JASON HARTMAN: I was talking with Harry Dent, and you know, he was talking about how real estate, it just lasts forever, you know? It’s amazing.

ALEX: So we’ve got some investors that only want stuff built after 2000. And my sort of counter to that is, if you have a house built in 2000, you’ve got a 14 year old AC, a 14 year old furnace, and a 14 year old roof. Whereas, our house, built maybe in the 1950s, 60s, or 70s, could have a new air conditioner, could have a new furnace, and could have a new roof, and those are three huge capital expenses that you don’t have to worry about for 15-25 years.

JASON HARTMAN: Looking at the numbers here, this pro forma is with 20% down, 80% financing, so you need about $24,500 to buy the property. And cash flow is projected at $2981 annually. So almost $3000 a year. Cash on cash return, 12% annually. And overall return on investment, 42% annually. And again, all of your costs are built in there. Your insurance, your property manager, so you know, you’re not managing your own properties. Maintenance cost of 8% of the income. You know, I would argue that it’s probably going to be quite a bit less, considering that this is a brand new rehab here. And you’ve got great management in place. So, phenomenal stuff here. I mean, this is just a surprising, great little market. I mean, last time I was in Little Rock, I was just totally struck at how clean and pretty this city was. I really did not expect that. In terms of economic development, steady increase in activities, manufacturing, transportation, service sector, growing at a steady rate. One of the top 15 aggressive development markets in the nation, which doubled in the past 30 years. Projections indicating that it will double again in the next 20 years. Downtown corridor, you want to highlight just anything there, in terms of that? I mean, the new jobs coming there, phenomenal.

ALEX: I think you just nailed it. The market—the things that you’re reading off, they speak for themselves. And this is a great weekend. If you’ve got a couple of days off, and you want to go to a new market, and spend two days in a city you’ve never been to, this is a great weekend town. A lot of stuff to do.

JASON HARTMAN: Our tour’s coming up at the end of September, so we hope you’ll join us there. And you can register for that at We will have a Saturday Creating Wealth Boot Camp. And so, I will be speaking all day Saturday, and teaching you all about real estate investing, and that applies to any market, of course. But then on Sunday, we will be very specific to the Little Rock market as we go around, and we actually look at these properties, and we’ll see them in different stages, whether they be rent-ready, or in the rehab stage; we’ll probably have a couple in the rehab stage. We’ll enjoy several meals together, so you’ll get to network with other investors, and talk with our team. Meet the property management team there, meet the construction team there, and just get a great idea as to the market. And the last thing I want to point out, Alex, is $1.3 billion in new capital investment, over $440 million in new payroll, since 2005, in 12,000 new jobs. So, really good stuff. Get here, be at our tour, be at our Creating Wealth Seminar, and you’ll get to do them both in one weekend at the end of September. Thank you so much for joining us and telling us about Little Rock. Any closing thoughts?

Closing comments

ALEX: I appreciate the interview, and I look forward to meeting some new investors in Little Rock in a couple months.

JASON HARTMAN: We’ll look forward to seeing you there. There’s still some early bird pricing. So go to, click on events, and register, and we’ll see you at the end of September.


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ANNOUNCER: This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company. All rights reserved. For distribution or publication rights and media interviews, please visit, or email [email protected]. Nothing on this show should be considered specific personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, or business professional for any individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own, and the host is acting on behalf of Platinum Properties Investor Network, Inc. exclusively.

Transcribed by David

The Jason Hartman Team

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